Ep 24 - Genetic Genealogy: Cold Cases, NPE, Privacy and Pam❤️

Join Kimberly and Laura on this captivating episode of "Chasing Hazel's Tales - A Family History Podcast" as they dive into the world of genetic genealogy. The dynamic duo, who are not only registered nurses but also family historians and sisters, discuss the fascinating application of DNA in cold case murder investigations. They explore high-profile cases like the Golden State Killer and the Canadian murder trial, highlighting how genetic genealogy played a pivotal role in solving these mysteries. However, they also delve into the privacy concerns and legal debates surrounding the use of DNA data. Additionally, the hosts share a deeply personal story about their cousin Pam, who was tragically murdered in 1981. Tune in to unravel the secrets of genetic genealogy, privacy rights, and the quest for justice in this thought-provoking episode.
LINKS FROM THIS EPISODE:
https://www.maine.gov/tools/whatsnew/index.php?topic=state_police_unsolved&id=21704&v=unsolvedhomicides2021
https://www.totheletterdna.com/who
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_James_DeAngelo#External_links
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-leonard-cochrane-murder-trial-dna-genealogy-1.6836384
https://www.mainepublic.org/show/maine-calling/2019-12-19/genetic-testing-how-dna-analysis-is-used-in-medicine-genealogy-and-forensics

Transcript

Kim: 0:03

Hello everybody and welcome back to Chasing Hazel's Tales, a family history podcast presented to you by two registered nurses all around family, historians and sisters. If you've got family history, we wanna talk about it. First things first, I need to apologize for. Last week I didn't put any music on my podcast again, uhoh again. That's twice. That's twice that that's happened, and I just got so excited when it was done. I went click and just sent it. Just sent, yep. Load. And it just went into the internet somewhere and I, I was listening to it at my car and I thought, Well, that sounds kind of dry. So anyway, I'm sorry. I'll try to remember again this time. I don't mean to do it, but all of Andrew's hard work and we didn't even use it. He did such a good job. Mm-hmm. So also this week we're gonna be on a bit of a tangent, but we'll come, it's gonna come back around to Carl Laing, our Great uncle, and we just want you to know right now that it will come back around, but I may get to talking a bit, which I like to do. But it all ties in at the end. So I just wanna let you know that. So, and of course it's d n a related, so that's always the tangent with us. Well tangent. We just, we just go off on, on, you know, this rabbit holes and anyway, there's so much out there. There's so much out there. We got, we just, everything kind of connects. But anyway, so my name is Kim McLaughlin. And I'm Laura Ireland. So

Laura: 1:29

we're we wanted to just take a minute to discuss DNA's use in cold case murder investigations, and there's been some big ones in the news and probably by now everyone's heard of the Golden State Killer. His name was Joseph D'Angelo and he was an American serial killer, serial rapist, Burgoyne Burgoyne. Burglar, not a Burgoyne. And former police officer who committed at least 13 murders, 51 rapes, and 120 burglaries across California between 1974 and 1986, and he did earlier. He did go by, they had a few names for him, the East Area Rapist and the Original Night Stalker. Right. He's believed to be responsible for at least three separate crime sprees throughout the state, each of which spawned one of those different nicknames before it became evident that they were all committed by the same person. And that must have been around the time that dna, right? They picture, so

Kim: 2:36

to speak. Right? They did connect all three of the of those by dna. They knew that the same guy was doing it, but they did figure that out through dna.

Laura: 2:47

Right. And so in early 2013, there was a crime writer named Michela McNamara, who she coined the name Golden State Killer around that time, and she wrote to heighten the awareness of the case. And she did end up writing a book, and I'm trying to remember the name of it.

Kim: 3:09

I'll be gone In the dark is the name

Laura: 3:11

of the book. Okay. All right. So it was, I'll Be Gone In the Dark. You know, and some people argue that giving names to these type of. You know, lifelong criminals, scumbags, whatever, however you want to coin the term can kind of glorify their crimes. And there's actually a few podcasts that I listen to that, right, that have this same belief, that real crime profile, right? And criminal analysts, those are both two, that they almost refuse to, to name the criminal. They

Kim: 3:42

only, they won't say their name and they won't use their. handle moniker or something. Yeah. Right. Like the Golden State kill, they won't use it. Right. But Michela McNamara had a very good intentions when she did this because it elevated all the connections to this one person who was responsible for all the crimes and Right. You know, and a lot of people may not have been able to connect so much if they hadn't given it a name like that. Mm-hmm. But I digress. It is horrible to elevate. Those types of people to any kind of notoriety.

Laura: 4:14

Right. And there are some people out there that do some strange things too. They, they have, there are like collectors cards for serial killers and stuff. And I, for the life of me, I just can't understand that level of, of insanity of, you know, glorifying these type of people. But anyway, that's, I'm not gonna Right. Not gonna. Keep going on about that. But yeah, the, the point of us mentioning this story is because they used genetic genealogy, ding, ding, ding to track him down, and that's what ended up getting him and that so they, they found somebody, they found hits on a certain. Company's website, was it Gedmatch I think? Yeah. Jed Match, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Somebody in his family had their DNA done and had it on GEDMatch, and using the genetic genealogy techniques, they were able to build a little tree, back it up, do all these different things, and figure out that he was the common denominator and he went to jail.

Kim: 5:16

He went to jail and because once he was caught, once they, once they had the d n A in hand and they could attribute it to him, he folded like a chair. He said it was me. And

Laura: 5:28

that and the whole story supported that. Right. You know, those crimes took place where he was living at that time in all of those different areas. So the, the D n A just helped put that connection together and got him arrested, so

Kim: 5:42

right. I think the website had identified No, I'm what I'm talking about the website, I'm talking about Gedmatch. They had identified 10 to 20 people who had the same get this great great, great grandparents as the Golden State Killer. So that's quite a few back. But you can do it. Like we, we know we, when we see our autosomal d n a, we can look and say, well, that, you know, it, there's such a small amount of centimorgans that are shared, you know, it's way, way back. Right? But that's what they could do with this information. And it took a long time for them to construct a really large family tree. And from this tree, they said they established two suspects. One was ruled out by another d n A test, and that left this guy. Right. And then they went in and collected, I guess he left a couple of items in public space where

Laura: 6:33

Right, they can pick up your trash right and get your D n a.

Kim: 6:37

Right? And then there it was. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So anyway, that's one way of using, genetic genealogy. And for me, That purpose was perfect. Mm-hmm. Who else better to get off the street? I mean, he was already, let's just say retired. He was older by the time they caught him. Mm-hmm. But at least it gave some sort of closure and you know, all this hard work that people had put into it, it just kind of came full circle and they were able to put him away and get all, all kinds of answers that they had really wanted. Right. So, and then Laura sent to me this past week. Another article regarding that very same thing, another person, but this is in Canada. And this person was wanted for a murder, and they were in the middle of the trial. And so, and they, they stopped because they, they decided they wanted to test a few theories or a few legal theories, and they did the exact same thing they got. DNA from this suspect matched it to d n A at scenes, but they had done that through family trees. But what he wanted, what happened was midway through the trial the defense had made an application to argue against the inclusion of the genetic genealogical evidence on the basis that the accused charter rights were violated. So the guy that was accused of murder thought that his rights were violated. And

Laura: 8:11

I think too that they are making the statement that the rights of the person who got the d n A done for commercial uses were those rights were violated too. Right? Like, I think it's on, maybe on both counts. Which they didn't, that topic did not come up in the case for the Golden State Killer. Right. It, it was, but in Canada,

Kim: 8:35

it, it was pretty much a slam dunk with the mm-hmm. Golden State Killer. Right. But in Canada, they're questioning many different avenues about whether or not this can be used. And what they're saying is they're gonna rule, and it's gonna be in June, in June. They're gonna rule'em whether this person has a reasonable expectation of privacy in other people's d n a meaning. So if I'm a crook, and look, I'm not, but if I were, but let's just say you are. Okay. Let's just say we are. I am. But if I were caught and they had some d n A on hand and they matched it, they, they found a connection to Laura. And they knew, well, this crook has gotta be Laura's sister. Then what I, what this person is saying, Hey, Laura shares d n a with me, therefore that's my d n a too, and I should have privacy. And I just don't get it. I, I, I, I hear it, but I don't get it. So,

Laura: 9:36

Right, right. It is, it's a complex issue, you know, privacy and you know, but also the ability to solve crimes and

Kim: 9:45

all that for the very reason that we, we just discussed. I mean, that was the most perfect use of genetic genealogy, you know, I, I can imagine. Right. But so what they're saying is, Hey you don't have the right to my dna n a which, which, which is included in all of my relatives. What if you've got a hundred cousins? You know, can you say that? All those hundred cousins, but here in the United States, what they do is they allow you to opt out of any law enforcement intrusion into your dna. N you can say, no, you cannot use my DNA for, for Legal purposes, so Right. And

Laura: 10:20

they do not take it, they don't take Ancestry does not allow that to happen. Right, right. Period. But GEDMatch does.

Kim: 10:27

Right. And and so you can opt in or opt out.

Laura: 10:30

Fyi, all of our relatives are DNAs on

Kim: 10:32

GEDMatch. That's right. Mine is. And yeah, I'm pretty sure I uploaded mine. So, yeah, so that's another. Thing that came up this week that got us thinking that, you know, we knew, we kind of probably knew that this, that all of this was gonna be challenged at some point. Mm-hmm. But up until this point in the United States, I don't think it has been challenged like this. So that's just No, that's just very, very, I'm, I'm

Laura: 10:58

sure lawyers in the United States are looking at this case in Canada and seeing how. You know, but maybe their laws around privacy are a little different. Right. You, I don't, I really don't know anything about the law, so I probably shouldn't even talk about

Kim: 11:10

it, but Right. But I mean, I understand, you know, I, I think it's good to get it cleared up. Mm-hmm. So if they wanna, they wanna do it, do it. But can I expect my DNA to be private when I know all my cousins have it too? You know? Mm-hmm. It's like, I don't, anyway, so we'll just see what that, what, what comes of that, because that's very, very interesting.

Laura: 11:32

Right. Right. So they're, you said June, they're gonna June. Yep. Rolling on that. Yeah. Okay. So we have Kim and I as well as our family, we have a case where we wish we had some D n A. Right. And if we did, I would totally use it. Totally,

Kim: 11:53

for sure. Best

Laura: 11:54

use. Best use. Yeah. So we had a cousin who was murdered in 1981. One, yep. Yeah. She, she went missing well, her name was Pam. She was 19 and she went missing on the, she was supposed to come to our grandparents' house like we all did. We were all there, I think. Right. She must have been the only one missing, I think, right. For their 50th wedding anniversary party. So all of us grandkids were waiting at the house. And the parent, all of our parents, there's, so that was a total of eight with their, you know spouses along with the grandparents. So they went out to dinner and we all gathered at their house and we're waiting for them to come back and celebrate and When they got back. And Pam's mother Janet, that's, that's who I remember seeing. And I'm sure Uncle Merl was right there with her, but realized that Pam was not there. Right. And they had had a long conversation. She was supposed to be there, that she had talked about what she was gonna wear. Mm-hmm. All of that. And she did not show. And, you know, there are more details, but I, you know, I don't. Don't really feel the need to go into all of them. Right. But so she ended up, you know, she did not arrive. The party went on with a little bit of stress for us, but we did continue on and, you know, the next, by the next day they reported her missing to the police. Right. And You know, there were a lot of things, Kim and I were teenagers when this happened. We're, so Pam was 19, I think I was 15. So you must have been almost 17, Kim 16,

Kim: 13:35

17 81. Yep. Yep. I would've been, yep. 17. Yep. And,

Laura: 13:39

You know, so this had happened in August and, you know, she went missing and there was just, there was nothing. Right. Her car was found in a parking lot in Bangor. And we never heard from her. And of course there were, I remember hearing things about oh, well maybe she ran away. Right? Maybe, you know, these are the things. It was 1981 and this was usually the way things were dealt with. I think law enforcement at the time just assumed that every young girl that went missing ran away. And I

Kim: 14:09

remember people there could be further from the truth, really.

Laura: 14:11

Right. Yeah. But so, you know, time, time went on and still nothing, no people rode around the state. There were times people reported seeing people who looked like her. You know, but nothing ever panned out. Nothing was ever found. And then you fast forward to November of the next year, so about 15 months later. So November of 1982. And I don't know about you, Kim, but I remember sitting in my friend Bridget's living room. Yep. And seeing the news report you know, the nightly news and a report came on about skeletal remains that were found Right. With long blonde hair. pearly fingernail polish young woman. The Jean jacket. Jean jacket, and probably, I, I don't remember what else, but the jean jacket, the, I remember the polished nails and the long blonde hair and they thought, you know, the height was about right. I think Pam was around five seven or yeah, something like that. And you know, the age and everything, it all lined up, but it, they had found just skeletal remains And you know, another day or so later. And she was identified by dental records, right. And and

Kim: 15:15

also I think by her nails, her fingernails were so distinctive because she always kept them very long, very long. Mm-hmm. And very brightly. You know, she had all these colors and so that they just, and, and her long, long blonde hair, they just knew. We all knew.

Laura: 15:30

Right. I, I remember jumping up and saying, you know, oh my goodness, that that's her, they've found her. That's, you know, that's gotta, anyway, so it, you know, it turned out it was her. And but, Nothing. I don't know. Kim, you might know a few more details about any sort of investigation. You did talk to the cold case people, didn't

Kim: 15:48

you? Right. I did a couple of years back because I was doing I did a little bit on N P R here in Portland about genetic genealogy and how it's used. Mm-hmm. And. So at that time I thought, you know, I'm just gonna call and ask. And I did. And they still didn't have anything, although it's still an active case and they still work on it. But of course my question was, is there any d n a, did you save anything? You know, like from under her nails you had something, you had to have something, you know? Mm-hmm. And no, they didn't. At the, nothing we saved, no. At least they, whatever. They were not very forthcoming with that information because I was thinking, let me add it. I'll do it. I will do it right. I will, I will do the genetic genealogy. Just put it on Gedmatch and you know, and we'll start working. We'll start working and we'll figure it out. But I got, you know, they use very few words when they talk to you. Mm-hmm. And they just were not forthcoming with that. And there was no nothing. So, and then only to find, I think, I believe she was cremated, so there's nothing to go back on. But I think they ha they have many leads and many types of things like that. But Right. But still, no one's been arrested. Right. And we would, we would, this would be the perfect use of genetic genealogy, in my opinion. Mm-hmm. And it, and we can't. Right. Because of the way things were investigated back then. And the way that she was buried. It's very, you know, I don't know. I'm just thinking Right. It's, it's hard to have hope that's all that that Right. That they'll be found. Although, you know, when I did talk to them, they, it's active, they are working it. They, they have people, you know, people that, and, and they go to work every day. They want to solve these things every day. Mm-hmm. But they just need a break. Right. And

Laura: 17:35

they can't go back in time and Right. Like I said, it was 1981. Yep. And, You know, they're like, oh, she's, she ran away. She went and she did something. She'll be back. Don't worry. So her apartment was not treated as a crime scene, right? There was probably evidence there. Yeah. You know, from the little bits that I've heard, it was probably someone in her building. Right. But they've never been able to prove it. And the, you know, the techniques they used back then, it just, they just didn't do anything. So, anyway, so d n a would've been our only hope. And, and we don't have that. So anyway, that's just our own little personal aside, you know, maybe that's partly why we're both so interested in this kind of thing and,

Kim: 18:15

you know. Yeah. That certainly plays into it. Mm-hmm. And so, We all, we all wish we could, we all wish we could, you know, get something. Yeah. You know, but anyway, we'll keep you up to date if anything ever, if that, that case ever breaks. I don't know if it, if it ever will. Yeah. It's been a long time. That's a long time. Yeah. And

Laura: 18:37

you know, there aren't many cases in life where I've wished bad things to happen to people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But if I knew who that person was, yeah. I, you know, There, there are things I would like to have happen to him.

Kim: 18:50

Yeah. And it, and yeah, there's probably, yeah. It's hard not to. Mm-hmm. Put it on those roads. Yeah. So, so anyway, so that's our, our cousin Pam, and we continue to share her photo and all those details on social media whenever we can. Cuz like I said, the, the state of Maine police, the police department is still. Working the case, we hope that they someday, someday solve it.

Laura: 19:16

Right. And she is on the website for the, the cold case, the unsolved murders from the state of Maine, if anyone's ever looked at that, her picture is there and her story and,

Kim: 19:27

And the number to call if anybody Yep. Anybody knows anything, somebody knows somebody somewhere knows something. Right. But, but it's a, but it's a tough call for whoever, whoever out there. Mm-hmm. It's not a tough call for me, but it's a tough call for somebody. But let me add him. Let me Adam, him. Yeah. So anyway, we'll we'll go from there. So there's a, that is a different way of using d n a that is very, very useful. But there's another thing, so Laura and I were talking about This is, this is the part where we come back to Uncle Carl here we're, it was a long road, but we go back there. Long road. But there's just so many different things that people use DNA for. And you know, one of the biggest things is parentage, right? When you wanna know someone's parents. And so, We know that Carl Laing, who was our uncle, who was a saver of all things, he, not a hoarder, he just saved everything. We loved him dearly. But he he was adopted just as, just like my grandmother was Hazel. He and Hazel were brother and sister, but they were not related. And like we say that we know of. Right,

Laura: 20:33

right. I think it's important to point that out. Yeah. And

Kim: 20:36

if we had ever had any DNA then, then we could probably figure that out, but we don't have any. But I wanted to mention a company that, here's another thing, another way DNA could be useful. There's a company called to the letter, DNA, n a, and what they do is they test artifacts, meaning holding in her hand. A letter from Uncle Carl that he wrote home that of course he saved and he licked those stamps and he licked that envelope. So his DNA is sitting right in front of her and you know, to me that's like, woo, let me, but, so there's a company that is out there that is refining the method to extract that d n a from that artifact and to process it and then give it back to the consumer. As like a an autosomal test just like you would get from Ancestry. And I think they may be working on other types of like Y D N A and things like that too.

Laura: 21:30

I'm gonna give you a good quote here, Kim. Okay. I'm ready. With enough money, most things are possible. Oh, so if we had a bunch of money to throw at this little envelope here in stamp with Uncle Carl's name Yeah, I bet somebody would extract that DNA

Kim: 21:47

n a for us. Yes, they would. And so this company they are, this is what they say to the letter DNA n a.com. They are professional historians, researchers and scientists with a passion for genealogy using d n A to grow family trees even further. They're located in Australia and their orders are done through the United States, but they are the first company in the world to offer commercially available testing of envelopes, postcards with stamps, aerograms, and other artifacts from deceased relatives for genealogical purposes. So meaning the, actually the person does have to be deceased? I believe so. Like if I said, oh, I'm gonna go find out Laura's DNA without her. Oh yeah, that would be importance. You lick a stamp. I can't, I can't test it. And I mean, for the, I mean, let's just think about it. I mean, I could say, well, yeah, this is Uncle Carl's DNA N but what if it's not? What if it's my father's dna? You know, that kind of thing. Mm-hmm. But that's another, that's another thing. So What they do is they, their, their goal is to generate autosomal d n a that they can use with Gedmatch. And so it's not, it's not cheap, but that is correct. So, but, but like I said, they're working to refine it and so I'm always interested whenever I read something about it I don't know what the prices will be. So Does the item that you have in your hand actually have DNA N on it? We think it does because Uncle Carl, I mean, it's an old letter and mm-hmm. You know, I think that they could extract DNA from it. So what they do is they, first thing they do is they they just take the item and they undertake extraction and to see what DNA they can pull from it. And if it's enough to be used, that'll cost you 200. And then they do analysis of whether or not it's human, d n, and whether it's suitable for further processing. Well, there's$395 and then they go for sequencing, which means this whole genome sequencing is Another thing that they can do for you. That's a lot of money. That's like$1,600. But they, they have, they do other things as well. But they want to know that it's possible. LAR could send in that letter that she's holding in her hand and it would not have anything on it at all, but at least they would try. And it's possible that the D D N A you think is on there, is not. The right person. So Laura could hand in that letter. It could have been the, you know, uncle Carl's bunk mate that licked everything. Right. You

24:07

know?

Laura: 24:08

Yeah. Hey, will you send that letter for me? And the friend licks the envelope and seals it and, you know, so it's,

Kim: 24:13

so, you don't know. It's, it's not perfect, but it's interesting. And so and so, just so you know, I really want to do it just because, I mean, wouldn't it be cool to send that in and say, I know this is Carl, and you know, and to get the information, but the point Yeah, that would be. Cool. Yeah, it would be cool. But, so Laura and I got to thinking about, so here we are with Uncle Carl. He's our, our wonderful uncle. He, we don't know who his, who his father is, but we do know who his mother is from paperwork that Carl saved. And the thing is, they didn't have any children. Carl and Hattie Laing right. Did not have any children. And so Laura and I discussed this, this week. When we start to talk about Carl Laing, do we wanna dive into his d n or, you know, into his genetic family? And we kind of thought, no. So there, there are times when you don't have to pull that trigger, so to speak. Mm-hmm. Right,

Laura: 25:11

right. Because I think for, for us, it, it really is more of a curiosity. Like, I don't know, it just feels like I don't know, like, maybe it's not our place to do that. I, I'm not sure. Right.

Kim: 25:22

Or it is curiosity and the nerdiness. Right. I mean, it would be a puzzle to figure out. It would be because his

Laura: 25:28

parents would not be our direct ancestors. Right. So I feel like, you know, I, I guess I feel like I would be invading their privacy. Because it's not our direct family. Right. Other than, you know, him being our uncle, but searching into his biological family just doesn't feel right

Kim: 25:46

to me. And there's also, right, like, so the thought is he was, he was born of a single woman, I'm assuming, and that's what I was told. Mm-hmm. And she worked in Augusta from what I understand. And the rumor was that it was a, high end attorney or judge. That's what Georgie told me one time. It was, it was a well-known judge that was his father. I don't know what that means, but

Laura: 26:08

I bet Georgie was right. She was right

Kim: 26:10

about a lot of things. She, she just knows stuff. Mm-hmm. But the, the point is, so he, they never had any children this woman may have gone on to have a really lovely life. You know, she gave a child up for adoption that that she couldn't raise because of this person. Mm-hmm. And the point is, There may be children that don't even know they have a brother. Right. You know, and they're probably about the same age, I would say, as Carl. They may have passed, but nonetheless it may be kind of ambushing someone. And for For what? For what? Mm-hmm. He's not a, Carl's not alive. He has no connection to them that we know of. Right. So our question was, do we even pursue this at all? Do we need to, do we need to know? Not really. Yeah. We knew who Carl was. He was, he was our uncle and we, we loved him dearly. But the whole d n A story, we don't think we really need to know him. We don't think we want to broach that, I guess. Right, right. Anyway. Yep. And also Hattie wouldn't want us to, Hattie hated it when we talked about family history. No, no.

Laura: 27:14

Oh my gosh. No. Talking about family history.

Kim: 27:17

No. So when we go on to talk about Carl next week, We've decided just to, I mean, he has a mother. We have the adoption record. I have, you know, that Kathy saved it was in Carl's Thingss. I know her name, but it's no real reason to call her out, you know? Right. I don't think it's right. So because she could have living

Laura: 27:36

children and or, and, and, and to, or grandchildren. Yeah.

Kim: 27:40

This would just be rude. Yeah. This would just be rude. So we're just not gonna do that.

Laura: 27:44

Yeah. I just keep going back to, I guess it's not our place cuz it's not.

Kim: 27:48

Right. Yep. So we're not going to, yeah. So, but just so you know that. But next week what we wanna do is to share with you more about Carl. You know, we didn't share much this week about him. Not really, no.

Laura: 28:00

Except to say we don't

Kim: 28:01

wanna talk about his dna N but we wanna talk about DNA N yes. But just not his dna. Right, right. Anyway, so we'll get all caught up with Uncle Carl and we're gonna read to you some letters regarding his life and they are just the best. And I especially like one that I'm holding in my hand. I'll read it to you next week, but it's the one where Hattie. It was just a little bit miffed because Carl did not get his hardship exemption and sent home from the military. She was mad at the army and took it out on Carl. Well, no, she took it out on the Army. She wrote him a letter. Oh, that's right. That's right. Yes. Yep. So she wrote a letter. We'll read that. That's coming up. That's just a, a glimpse. But, you know, her letters are always much more entertaining than anybody else's, so. Hmm. But we do have plenty and we wanna discuss Carl, and we have maybe some other things in the works coming up. So, anyway.

Laura: 28:55

Yeah, we can probably work DNA into that conversation too, Kim. Let's do

Kim: 28:59

it. You know, we probably have Hattie's DNA somewhere around here.

Laura: 29:05

We got, we have a lot of it actually. Yeah. She wrote him a lot of letters and he saved every

Kim: 29:11

one. So we have a billion little 1 cent stamps or 2 cents stamps, whatever. They're, I just don't wanna know. Hmm.

Laura: 29:24

A lot of thoughts on that one.

Kim: 29:26

Yeah. All right.

Laura: 29:29

All right. So until next week, please rate, review, or follow us on your favorite podcast platform. And we also invite you to reach out to us by email at Chasing Hazel tales@gmail.com. Tell us your tales, or share what you've learned or found interesting about your family and let us know if you've shaken your family tree and had a few nuts fall out. And you can also follow us at or contact us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or TikTok. So until next time, so long,

Kim: 30:00

goodbye.